Q&A: Lieutenant General Robert W. Wagner
Written by Jeff McKaughan
WARRIOR LEADER:
Warrior Support at the War Front and the Home Front
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Lieutenant General Robert W. Wagner
Commander
U.S. Army Special Operations Command
Warrior Support at the War Front and the Home Front
Lieutenant General Robert W. Wagner
Commander
U.S. Army Special Operations Command
Lieutenant General Robert W. Wagner assumed command of the U.S. Army Special Operations Command December 6, 2005. Prior to commanding USASOC, Wagner served as the deputy commander, then acting commander, of the U.S. Joint Forces Command.
Wagner graduated from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point in 1970. He holds a masters degree in industrial relations from Purdue University. He attended the U.S. Marine Corps Amphibious Warfare School, the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College and the National War College.
Throughout his career, Wagner has served in airborne infantry, Ranger, special operations, and joint assignments including 10-years of overseas duty. His joint tours include two assignments on the Joint Staff in Washington, D.C., two joint special operations tours and USJFCOM. He served as the commanding general, U.S. Army Southern European Task Force (Airborne), Vicenza, Italy and as the commanding general of Special Operations Command South in Panama. He has had six Special Operations assignments including the 1st and 2nd Ranger Battalions, the 75th Ranger Regiment’s S3, USSOCOM current operations offices and executive officer to commander USSOCOM, commander SOCSOUTH, and commander USASOC. He commanded the 2nd Battalion, 187th Infantry (Airborne) in Panama; the 1st Battalion (Ranger), 75th Infantry; and the 193rd Infantry Brigade in Panama, SOCSOUTH in Panama, SETAF in Italy and SOCSOUTH. He also served in the 1st Infantry Division, 1st Cavalry Division, as an aide at Fort Leavenworth, and as a tactical officer at West Point.
Wagner is a veteran of combat operations in Vietnam with the 101st and MACV, and in Panama with 1st Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment.
His military decorations include the Defense Distinguished Service Medal with oak leaf cluster, the Distinguished Service Medal, the Defense Superior Service Medal with oak leaf cluster, the Legion of Merit with oak leaf cluster, the Bronze Star with two oak leaf clusters, the Meritorious Service Medal with three oak leaf clusters, the Air Medal, Vietnam service medals, and the Army Commendation Medal.
His military awards include the Combat Infantryman Badge, Master Parachutist Badge with combat star, and the Army Ranger Tab. Wagner has parachuted into Kosovo, Bosnia, the Ukraine, Jordan, Italy, Germany, Hungary, Argentina, Panama and Venezuela.
Lieutenant General Wagner was interviewed by SOTECH Editor Jeff McKaughan
Q: Although perhaps basic, I would like to start out with an overview and update on USASOC as a whole. What can you tell me about the growth in personnel within the command and has that relieved any deployment pressure that your forces were under?
A: Growth has been an important part of what we have been going through. Between 2004 and 2013 we will grow about 43 percent and much of that growth we have already achieved.
Even back to September 2001, if you look at Special Forces Command, the Special Warfare Center and School, the 160th Special Operations Aviation, the Rangers, civil affairs and PSYOP— from then to now we have actually grown in authorization by 5,201 people and our actual strength has increased by 5,722.
Considering we were at 97 percent fill when the towers were struck, we are over 101 percent right now and we have also grown over 5,000 in authorization. You can see how important the growth has been to us.
Much of the growth has been in Special Forces which is our largest command. As you know, we are growing an additional SF battalion in each group and have recently stood up the first new battalion in 5th Group. We will add another battalion in 09, 10, 11, and 12 adding over 4,000 more Special Forces soldiers. So this is very important for our global engagement and very noticeably, In Iraq and Afghanistan where for seven years the Special Forces have skillfully conducted combat operations while at the same time recruiting, assessing, selecting and training new security forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. Much of the success we see today in both countries is attributed to their very successful capacity building operations.
For the Rangers we didn’t grow an additional Ranger battalion but we did add an additional company to each of their existing three battalions and we stood up a special troops battalion. In 2007, the Rangers were authorized about 2,220. Now they are authorized over 2,800 personnel. Overall between the military and the civilian sides we grew more than 600 personnel and the Rangers have already achieved all of that growth so they are at over 100 percent strength again. We also took some of the Ranger detachments and transitioned them to companies, for example signal and military intelligence. This was an important growth area for the Rangers as the heavily focus on high value targets in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Q: What about civil Affairs and PSYOP?
A: Of great importance to us are our civil affairs and psychological operations forces. They have grown phenomenally. While the Reserve side of CA and PSYOP are no longer assigned to USASOC, they too have grown significantly and are deployed globally at rates far greater than desired dwell rate. However, today I will focus on the active side of the CA and PSYOP forces.
Very important to note, in 2006, both CA and PSYOP became career branches. In the past they were additional skills so we could not have the same people continuously stay with the force. Becoming a career branch is equally as important as the growth because it allows us to build that future force. Back in 2004 we only had one battalion of CA—the 96th Civil Affairs Battalion with slightly over 400 soldiers. In 2007 we added the brigade headquarters, which is the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade, and an additional battalion, the 97th, so we then had two full battalions. A year later, in 2008, we added a third battalion—the 98th— and in 2009 we will add the 91st Battalion. So we have gone from one battalion to a brigade with four battalions. An overall increase in strength from 208 in 2001 to 891 in 2009.
I think we will add one more battalion—a battalion for Africa— and probably two more civil affairs companies of 32 people each in each of the five battalions. This will take that strength to a little over 1,400 people for the AC CA force. Remember, the reserve side is much larger and has been heavily committed supporting the general purpose force.
The civil affairs mission is critically important. As you know, our CA teams go into an area and assess the legitimate needs of the people. What are their concerns and how can we build credibility and rapport with them so we can establish a working relationship. The CA teams open those doors. Whether it is a construction project, a medical, dental or veterinary exercise, school, medical clinic or assisting with educational needs. Or maybe determining that what is needed is a cash crop for economic stability. Perhaps our teams will help with an irrigation project and introduction of a cash crop. This full range of events is what we focus on. That is, what are the legitimate needs of the people that are not being met? What can be done to assist in the establishment of governance in a country that will be seen by the people as providing for and meeting their needs. And doing so, just like the Special Forces, “by, with and through” local leaders so the credit goes to them.
The PSYOP side of the house is growing in a similar fashion. In 2001 we were authorized 1,299 people, and by 2009 we will be at 2,283 people. A significant growth curve! I think more growth is likely in that we will add yet another battalion for Africa, which should push the personnel total to 2,740 people.
What is perhaps more important to focus on are the tactical PYSOP teams. These are an important engagement component and they have gone from 27 teams in 2001 to 64, and hopefully we’ll take that up to 96 teams. This again is crucial growth. Especially when you consider that during the surge last year we had 100 percent of the tactical PSYOP teams deployed at the same time. This new growth was partially our way to recover from the heavy deployment tempo. The PSYOP soldiers sustain a very heavy deployment tempo. Many people do not realize the capability of PSYOP. I sometimes relate them to a CNN-like operation. As our teams are out in the field they have the ability to reach back to Fort Bragg [N.C.] where we have a very sophisticated media operations center and a number of highly skilled PhD regional experts, as well as, lithographers, broadcasters and other mass communications specialties. This is also home to our TV and radio stations and our print plant. When the teams in the field have an idea, mission or requirement, they can send the task back to Bragg where a storyboard can be created for a product that can help meet the requirement in the field. With input from the field and the Fort Bragg detachment, a product is developed, whether it is an advertising campaign, a leaflet, TV spot or radio program. The purpose for PSYOPs is to convey an idea that results in a change of belief and ultimately behavior: behavior that supports the intended objective. The messages are very subtle. It is really exciting when you get a legitimate mission for PSYOP; it might be something along the idea of reducing the corruption in government, or toleration of diversity.
This is a unit that has a very clear mission—to ultimately change someone’s behavior and do it without the use of force. Both CA and PSYOP work in the field at the tactical to operational level as well as at the embassy and theater levels supporting operational and strategic level requirements. The caliber of these young men and women is incredible.
Q: Would you like to see even more growth on the CA and PSYOP side of the house?
A: Absolutely yes. I would also say there is a clear link between the Active and the Reserve for the CA and PSYOP mission. When General [Doug] Brown and General [Peter] Schoomaker made the decision to separate the Active and the Reserve CA and PSYOP forces between SOF and the Army it was not just a separation, it was adding emphasis and focus to these important mission areas as well as growth—growth for both components.
The Active supports primarily SOF and the CAPOC force supports primarily the general purpose force. The mission is what is truly important, so the growth has to happen for both.
On the Active side, as I mentioned, I believe we need and additional battalion for both CA and PSYOP and two additional companies for each of the CA battalions. Although out of my area of responsibility, in support the general purpose force, I believe one Active and two Reserve CA brigades may be required.
CA and PSYOP have to be part of the initial way we think about planning and conducting operations. Not just a capability we look for after we develop a plan. The time for CA and PSYOP has come to where they must be part of the planning from the start. In fact, in some cases, they may be the supported mission rather than a supporting capability.
Q: And the 160th?
A: For the 160th there are a number of great things happening— both as they relate to our platforms and our people.
On the aircraft side, while we have three aircraft types in the fleet—the Little Birds, the Black Hawks and the Chinooks— because of modifications over the years we actually operate 10 different airframe variants. Each variant requires its own maintenance and training pipeline. We are working to replace all of the old Black Hawks and Chinooks with new frames, and cockpits will be common to both aircraft. This will provide tremendous benefits in terms of training, maintenance and capability.
We are also increasing aircraft from a 2005 level of about 147 aircraft, to 184 by 2013. So we are growing in frames, and correspondingly, in pilots and crews as well.
Q: And sustainment?
A: On the sustainment side there is significant shortage. We need additional personnel for our sustainment construct to match our growth. As the Army changed from supporting brigades, to brigade combat teams, and became modular, we also became modular. But we were not able to grow the force in terms of the number of people required to support the mission. You can imagine the complexity of our engagement profile with all of the SF ODAs, CA and PSYOP teams spread all across Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere—today we are in 51 different countries.
This is a tremendous challenge for our logistics structure.
Q: What can you tell me about the role of the National Guard and Reserve special operations units? How do you keep the skills of these warriors as sharp as those of the active units?
A: Our primary elements here are the 19th and 20th Special Forces Groups which are in the National Guard. Their role is vitally important to us for a number of reasons. I will tell you up front, we have employed these great soldiers on a heavy sustained basis, and they continue to deploy on a voluntary basis at a rate far greater than we could direct them to deploy. They are involved not only in Afghanistan and Iraq but also in our global engagement program.
Our force is heavily committed. Part of our relief and our ability to provide flex to the other five active duty groups does come through the National Guard. We carefully work them into our plans and are grateful for their service. It is particularly hard for the National Guard to get their MOS qualification when they join their unit. It is more difficult simply because of the amount of time it takes to become qualified. Their leadership is very cognizant of that and is working to make sure the process as smooth as possible.
Q: What role does USASOC have in training the Special Forces/ commandos both in Afghanistan and Iraq?
A: This is probably one of the more important questions we will talk about today.
A lot of the media focus is on kinetic actions and describe those events. However, to us, the indirect approach is the most important work that we are accomplishing. It is precisely how you build the long term capacity of those nations to govern themselves.
When you look at Iraq for example, one of the first things that happened was the elimination of all of their security forces. This made early partnerships very difficult. At that point, U.S. Special Forces had to conduct a lot of direct action missions. However, from the very beginning they were assessing what type of forces they would need to form. This became the primary effort—to identify units they could stand up, assess and select the people for those units, and train them.
Initially, when they stood those forces up, the new local forces observed our units. For example, if we had a 12-man ODA conducting an operation there might be two or three of the new unit members involved. As time went on, their numbers became bigger and our numbers became smaller, to the point where the roles were completely reversed. Now those units, like the 36th Combined Iraqi Civil Defense Corps—which interestingly enough, has Kurd, Sunni and Shiite, all participating together with great loyalty to the force. They then formed into a commando unit, and with the added development of the Iraqi Counter Terrorism Force, now comprise the Iraqi SOF Brigade.
This is incredible and is exactly what you want your Special Forces to do. Start off conducting operations, as necessary, and as rapidly as possible transition from the direct to the indirect side as you build that force—always maintaining the ability to conduct an operation if necessary.
It is also interesting to see how the Iraqi national leadership now sees that force. It is not surprising that Prime Minister Maliki has named them the Golden Brigade—named because of their successes.
When you look at both the highly successful Afghan Commandos and the Iraqi SOF Brigade, these units are setting the example for the other forces in their respective countries. Redefining what it means to be a military professional. They each have a countrywide mission because they have capabilities that exceed all others and they set the bar for other units to work towards.
To me, this is classically what your Special Forces should be doing. Often times I say that a farmer plants a seed and lets it grow. But it takes time for the crop to mature before you harvest the benefit. After our soldiers putting their lives on hold for seven years, the programs they set in place are now starting to mature and we are reaping the benefits of that. Things don’t just happen because it’s a given year or given person—they are happening now because of a lot of hard work and sacrifices by soldiers over all these years. We knew that it was going to take time. However, things are starting to mature and we are seeing positive results. We must stay the course.
Q: Although the M4 is serving the SOF warrior well, what will the new SCAR bring to the fight and what is the current schedule for its assignment into combat units?
A: I think it is always important that we look for new technologies and systems that might provide us better capabilities than what we have. I would say, at this point, we are still assessing how the SCAR will fit in, if it will fit in, and if so—what additional capabilities it will provide the warrior.
There are some parts about the SCAR that are attractive— for example, the ability to have different calibers with the same weapon.
It is undergoing continued assessment. It is not as though the current weapon is not serving us well and is not a capable weapon. It is an interesting balance to determine if it is that much better, and if so, how much better. Weapons are always interesting. If you have five different experts they might each choose a different weapon.
We are grateful for the opportunity to look at the weapon and see what it will provide us, but I would say that we are not committed to anything until soldiers are able to use it in operational evaluations and they tell us what they think. When you are choosing a weapon, the best method is for the soldier to say whether it’s good for them. Much of a weapon’s value is instinctive feel capabilities and how it matches with what our missions require. It has to be something our soldiers are comfortable with.
Q: Larger than any other tactical vehicle special forces have operated, do the MRAP class vehicles mark a permanent addition to the USASOC’s TO&Es or do you see these vehicles as temporary vehicles to meet short term needs? Whatever the case, what have been the pluses and minuses of adding them to your inventory?
A: We will always need a family of vehicles—light, medium and heavy. Vehicles that can operate in an environment like Iraq. Along with a series of vehicles that are lower visibility, that can blend in.
As you know, the same vehicle is not necessarily suitable in all parts of Afghanistan and Iraq just because of the terrain. I don’t think we will ever have that one right vehicle.
In talking to a captain at Walter Reed; the very day that he drew his MRAP, it hit an IED and was destroyed. He would have been killed had he not been in it. It was not able to save everyone, but I am absolutely confident that certainly in the environments we operate in the vehicle has been a lifesaver. I am grateful to both the Army and to SOCOM for the creation of those vehicles. However, we need a family of vehicles, so I would suspect that when the environment changes and we are operating with something different, those vehicles would go into storage for future use.
When you look at the vehicle, you have to think of the vehicle as a complete system. It is the vehicle—the body, engine, wheels, it is also the armor that goes on it, the weapons system, the communications systems, the sensors and so on. We have to look at the total demands of the environment and what our soldier’s needs are to operate successfully in that environment.
In some cases, you might be better off with a rental vehicle that has no armor or comms and in other cases you might need something more heavily protected.
Again, I want to comment on the great work done by the Army and SOCOM in rapidly fielding new technologies and capability to support our soldiers in combat.
Q: Are biometric tools sophisticated and portable enough to be easily deployed with teams and used in determining persons of interest on the spot?
A: In general, we are on the leading edge of the introduction of biometrics into tactical environments. Fortunately, we didn’t start with a lot of legacy items that were large and heavy, so our inclination from the beginning was to provide something to the ground force that would be useful and lightweight.
Also of note is our fielding of secure tactical field communications to the team level which is necessary to relay back what we have found for analysis. We have great success stories, where literally within as little as 7-15 minutes we have been able to get positive identification to confirm or deny matches through an increasingly robust database.
Biometrics has become increasingly important as we fight a more mobile, global adversary.
Q: Any consideration of acquiring a version of the V-22 for the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment-Airborne?
A: I would say no. I think that is an aircraft with special capabilities that should rightfully belong to AFSOC.
I do think that the Joint Cargo Aircraft [JCA] would be very useful for USASOC and I hope that we would be fielded the aircraft to the 160th SOAR. I think that one of the things that it could do for us is relieve the current tactical helicopter fleet from some admin and log missions that would be perfectly suited for the JCA to perform. It certainly is a more effective way of accomplishing that mission.
Q: Staying with rotary craft for just a minute, the Little Bird fleet is an important component for the 160th. With aging aircraft an issue across the board, what is the current service expectancy of the Little Birds and have you started to look at alternative airframes for that mission?
A: Our last Little Bird came off the production line in July 2008. We think that with the block upgrades we have planned, we will be able to maintain the Little Birds to between 2020 and 2025. Some things are just amazingly effective—the Little Bird is one of those. You could make it more expensive and more sophisticated but I don’t think it would be much better—it’s a great aircraft when flown by our world class pilots.
Q: What is the long range unmanned aerial system acquisition strategy for USASOC? For platforms larger than the backpacksized UAVs, have you created unique teams or individuals that will operate the larger aircraft?
A: We are still in the growth aspects of UAVs and what they can do for us. I equate it back to when SATCOM first came to be and the chosen few were allowed to use it. We kept it very closely guarded. We quickly realized that anybody could use a radio and most everybody needed it.
The same is true for UAVs. I think we need to let the growth of UAVs flourish and not try to control or constrain it. We don’t yet know what we don’t know about UAVs, but I can tell you that they have been tremendously beneficial to us in Afghanistan and Iraq.
It is important that we get the Sky Warriors. Two companies assigned to the 160th—the sooner the better. If we could get them in FY10 that would be best, if it’s not until 2015 or 2016 we would have to seek assistance from somewhere else. That capability is an enabler which we must have to operate effectively.
Q: Is there anything else you would like to add?
A: Our command operates by our people—and most of our people are senior people. The entry level for Special Forces is normally a staff sergeant or a captain. We have to retain these senior people. At any one time, over one-third of our population could retire. As a true credit to them, what they believe, and what they are willing to do in the name of service after these seven years of war, we are maintaining above 100 percent strength of our forces.
The true heroes are our people—it’s not our equipment, it’s not the technology—it’s our people. The people with the experience and judgment to figure out whether the best option is a direct or an indirect approach in any given city, at any given time, on any given day. People we can trust in ambiguous situations operating on intent-type guidance and vast experience.
The credit goes to the people—the soldiers and their families. One of our jobs is to enable their success by giving them the tools to help them accomplish their mission. I have never seen a more competent, more professional force. Incredible people volunteer to join our force every day.
I would also like to comment on the medical system that takes care of our soldiers. In previous wars, many of the casualties we suffer today would have died. Many times today, when a soldier is hurt, the first question they ask is, ‘when can I get back to my unit?’ They have every expectation that they will recover and rejoin their unit. That is a tremendous credit to our medical training, our medics and our total medical system.
I would also like to mention the great job the Army does in taking care of the families and wounded warriors. The whole process is very effective. Frankly, living here at Fort Bragg, like many other posts around the system, the support infrastructure is fantastic—both military and civilian. I respectfully thank the cities surrounding our bases that look after our families when our soldiers deploy. When a senior soldier, who could retire, returns home from theater, or a young soldier on the first deployment, and tells his or her spouse that he or she is getting ready to deploy again, you have to have a support system that supports and believes in and truly cares for our soldiers.
Finally, thanks to SOTECH for your long standing support of our nation’s Joint Special Operations Forces. ♦
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